Podcast Transcript: Eliminating STAAR: What it Means for Texas Schools

Intersect Ed Podcast – Season 3, Episode 7

Note: Intersect Ed is best experienced as a podcast. If you are able, we encourage you to listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis missing from the transcript.

MORGAN SMITH: Welcome to the Intersect Ed Podcast, where the stories of public education policy and practice meet. 

I’m your host, Morgan Smith.

When the doors closed on the 89th Legislature in May 2025, lawmakers left behind a promising proposal to reform standardized testing in Texas public schools. 

But now — a few months later —  Gov. Greg Abbott has brought them back to Austin for a special session to tackle a number of pressing items facing the state. And on the list is a call “to eliminate the STAAR test.” So does this mean lawmakers will have another shot at improving the way the state measures student learning in public schools? And what exactly does eliminating the STAAR test mean for accountability? Today, I’ll talk with Amy Dodson — the dean of advocacy, instruction and growth for Raise Your Hand Texas — to find out. 

MORGAN SMITH: So, Amy, there was a lot of talk about assessment and accountability during the 89th regular session — and House Bill 4, the legislation addressing those issues went really far — what happened to it in the end?

AMY DODSON: It was a lot of conversation around assessment, accountability and the STAAR test and what are some alternatives and how do we make the system better and stronger toward the end of session and House Bill 4 was a really great vessel for that. Sailed through the House, had some changes from the Senate and ultimately when they went to conference committee, just didn’t have enough time to finish negotiations and to get a good bill out and so it died ultimately.

MORGAN SMITH: We know that a lot of legislative business comes down against those final deadlines — what were some of the sticking points in the negotiations over HB 4? 

AMY DODSON: Just some differences as we look at how do we do best by our kids, and different conversations being had around the STAAR and what really works, and should we move, could we move to a nationally norm-referenced test? A lot of good conversations being had, some rich dialogue on both sides, and ultimately all the excitement that was being felt because people across the state, parents, teachers, business leaders, had a lot of strong feelings about the STAAR and it was exciting to see the conversation and ultimately just ran out of time to end up with something that really could have been meaningful. And, hopefully, we’ll pick it up again and have some good things happen in the special or in the next regular session.

MORGAN SMITH: You mention the strong feelings about the STAAR exams that came up during these discussions — what messages were lawmakers responding to from educators, parents, and business leaders with HB 4? 

AMY DODSON:

Usually, the biggest question or the biggest thing that comes out is that the STAAR is a one-test on one day. And we don’t hear a lot of people, parents in particular, getting really excited about the STAAR test. They see the stress that it induces in their children for that one day, that everything they’ve worked for all year, it comes down to how they feel or how they perform or how they remember that day. Teachers see the struggle that their students go through and the stress that it causes them, and so there’s a lot of frustration around that part of testing.

The other piece of it, I think that comes up more often than ever is schools do so much more. Schools do so much more than train for a one test, and they want to see something that is more reflective of what really a good school is. I know I said two things, I’m going to say three. When I work with parents in the field, which I do a lot, they tend to say, “Yes, my child gets stressed,” and that’s whether they do really well on that one-day one-test STAAR or whether they struggle. They talk about the stress that their children feel, but they also say, “I don’t believe that the STAAR shows me what my child really learned.” And so that’s what typically comes out over and over again, it’s just that frustration with the current system. Not that we don’t need a tool to evaluate our students, not that we aren’t required and must, for the good of our education system, look to assess growth and to see that we see positive things with our students.

But it’s the current system of the one-day one-test and the stress that we put around it all, the parents, teachers, and even business owners who look back and look at what they’re looking for in terms of CTE programs or workforce skills or soft skills, those are things the STAAR test doesn’t measure, and that’s what we hear in the field from our communities.

MORGAN SMITH: We know that Gov. Greg Abbott is also hearing these frustrations, or he wouldn’t have included assessment and accountability on his special session call. The governor specifically used the language of “eliminating the STAAR” — talk to us a little about what that would look like. 

AMY DODSON: We are always going to have to have a test of some sort to evaluate the growth of our students and to look at how our schools are performing. That’s just something that communities deserve, parents deserve, and ultimately that teachers and school leaders want. I think we need to be really clear on that. When you talk about eliminating the STAAR, it’s not just setting aside everything. And when we talk about teachers or school leaders getting frustrated with the current system, it’s not about not wanting to show the great work that’s happening, it’s that they want to show more. And the STAAR is a part of the real conversation for the governor and was a part of House Bill 4. The biggest part of it was how do we make it better? How do we make it more comprehensive, more informative? And a lot of people use the term, how do we make it more instructionally helpful or instructionally relevant or instructionally supportive?

MORGAN SMITH: So it sounds like we aren’t talking about completely getting rid of testing here — more like improving it. What does that mean for the kind of testing public schools would use to replace STAAR? 

AMY DODSON: When we look at the STAAR, it’s a criterion-referenced test that is built to evaluate the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills, the TEKS, which every bit of our instruction is guided upon what we hope students learn, which that’s good. What we are talking about replacing the STAAR with, the conversation that’s being had, is to add or to replace it with, swap, one one of our new favorite words is to swap the STAAR test with a nationally norm-referenced test. Now, the nationally norm-referenced tests have been around for decades. They are used widely across Texas right now. They’re not a part of the accountability system, that’s what STAAR’s doing, but many, many school districts — I don’t know the exact number, but I know all the school districts that I work with in my field work, pretty much all of them — 90% of the schools I work with probably use the MAP or i-Ready or Renaissance or one of those nationally norm-referenced tests. 

MORGAN SMITH: Interesting — so you are saying that Texas public schools already have experience with the tests that could replace STAAR — what do these tests tell them that STAAR doesn’t? 

AMY DODSON: They use it in addition to the STAAR for several reasons. Number one, they’re really looking for student growth. They want to know in the beginning of the year test, these nationally norm-referenced tests, when they walk in, where is the student today? Where are they with math and English and science? Where are their learning needs when they walk in the door? It gives information aligned with our TEKS, these nationally norm-referenced tests being discussed are aligned with the TEKS. They can look to see down to the individual-specific level, where is a student right now? Where do they need help? Maybe they’re performing wonderfully in math, but they have this one little struggle and the teacher can see on these tests, “Oh, that’s it. That’s exactly where I can help little John, little Jane. I can help them get better in this.”

These nationally norm-referenced tests really focus on growth. They give instructionally relevant information in the moment. They come back with the results within 24 hours. When many people talk about eliminating the STAAR, one of the things they get frustrated with is recognizing that the STAAR results come back in the summer when students are already gone and in most cases have already moved on to the next grade level. The information is not instructionally helpful to the teachers, to the parents, or to the students, really. I’ve heard many people compare the STAAR test with an autopsy. It’s after the patient is gone, I can’t help that patient and I want to be able to help. I want to do something helpful for my student.

These nationally norm-referenced tests are adaptive so a student that is performing really well, it keeps pushing them to go higher and higher to see what their growth could really look like. It gives them goals to meet and it really helps parents to know where a student is. Another frustration with the STAAR is it takes a long time to take in addition to being the one-day one-test and being something that the results come in much later. These nationally normed-referenced tests are shorter. You can take them most of the time in less than an hour. They really give information that is practical and they are, even in the name, nationally normed-referenced. While they’re aligned with our TEKS to make sure we don’t lose sight of Texas standards, they show students and parents where the student compares to other students in Texas and nationally. 

Eliminating the STAAR is not getting rid of the test, it is changing the way we approach and giving more information. That’s the big bottom line is we want to give more information and more things and more tools in the tool chest of parents and teachers so that students have the most growth possible.

MORGAN SMITH: What would all this mean for our public school accountability system, which right now is overwhelmingly based on the results of the STAAR exam? 

AMY DODSON: Eliminating the STAAR is that lead piece and sometimes it gets muddled with accountability because STAAR is the feature piece of our A through F accountability system, so that one-test one-day leading to an elementary and middle school, 100% of their A through F score that’s given to a campus is based on that STAAR test. We still want to have this test just like we just talked about, the things that really help teachers do well by students. But you would still use… You could use that information, those tests would absolutely still be able to be a part of and factor into the accountability system.

But schools and teachers and communities, I think, deserve to know all that’s happening and a much more comprehensive look at what’s happening in our schools because our schools don’t just provide good academics and they don’t just want to see students grow in the academics, that’s clearly the primary focus. But schools also provide a safe learning environment, and they provide fine arts, and they provide theater, and they provide work skills. They do so much more every day, every year, on every campus across this state than just prepare for a STAAR test.

When we look at what A through F changes might could happen, it’s adding other indicators. It’s adding things that a community sees as really valuable to them, valuable to their future workforce. So, measure student growth, show their dynamic academic improvements, and then show all the other things that schools do every day that make our public schools so very special. You combine those together and you have a pretty robust accountability system that tells parents and communities much more than what they’re finding out right now.

MORGAN SMITH: So today we’ve talked a lot about nationally norm-referenced tests. During the regular session we also frequently heard that term in discussions about how to measure student growth in private schools funded with education savings accounts under Senate Bill 2. Do you see that factoring into a special session conversation around testing? 

AMY DODSON: I think so. I think that what we learned in some of those discussions early on around SB 2 is that the nationally norm-referenced tests are good, quality, reputable tests. They’ve been around for many, many years. They do the things that we want most as parents. As a parent, I wanted to know that my child was growing. I think every parent wants that. That’s the foundational piece we want when we send them to school. Having those conversations around SB 2 really helped highlight for many people who may have been unfamiliar with the nationally norm-referenced tests that they are out there, they are quality, they have a long track record of being excellent and on point of showing the things that they’re supposed to show.

Allowing that to be the mark and the measure for students that are in the ESA program really bolsters the argument in many ways to say, this is a good test, it does good things. It is good for all of our students, and that includes our public school students. I do think that that conversation really helped broaden it out and really bring a spotlight on the quality that’s out there with those and what can happen, the quality and the subtle things, the important things that the nationally norm-referenced test can give. I think it’s a great thing.

MORGAN SMITH: Amy, thank you so much for talking with me today. I want to ask — I know there are a lot of people listening who care a great deal about this topic and are going to want to get involved as we move through the possible multiple special sessions. What’s the best way for them to stay informed?

AMY DODSON: I think to get involved is really pretty simple. The best thing that you can do is to go to raiseyourhandtexas.org, our website. It’s very easy to navigate and there’s a couple of things there that you can do. One, you can sign up for our email, our newsletter, it’s called Across the Lawn, and it gives information about what recently happened in the legislature, comes out during session, gives you simple, concise information that is really, really helpful and shows you what you can do from there to help out.

Another way you can get involved is just to simply sign up for our text alerts. When bills are moving and things are happening, we try to send out text messages to rally voices around Texas. So, signing up for our text alert is a way for us to quickly give you information and allow you to very simply connect and have your voice heard.

And the third way that I would really encourage you to get engaged on is to meet with your regional advocacy director. Raise Your Hand Texas is blessed to have a regional advocacy director for every community in this state. There is not a portion in West Texas where I live, or the Panhandle or the Valley or any metro area, north to south, east to west, that doesn’t have someone there designated to help and to listen and to engage and give more information. Love for you to connect with them. The website has an interactive map. You can click on where you live and it’ll show you how you can send email and connect with your RAD.

Hearing from communities and hearing your stories and hearing your voices is really important to us. We want to do that so connecting with your RAD gives you the opportunity to get more information, sit down and have coffee with, host an event with them, or just find a way to get your story heard. And so I would encourage you to do that, but getting involved really matters. Your voice matters, and as we’re talking about right now around STAAR and A through F, you have a story. You probably have thoughts, please share it with us. We’d love to hear from you.
MORGAN SMITH: The sound engineer for today’s episode is Brian Diggs, and our executive producer is Anne Lasseigne Tiedt. Thank you so much for listening.